Tuesday, April 15, 2008

Lead Zeppelin

No, I’m not talking about Robert, Jimmy, John and John Paul, a mean guitar riff or even a reunion tour (past, present or future); I’m referring to the inability of my last blog post to get off the ground. Oh well, it was Monday and I did toss out something very difficult to deal with.

You see, there are verses in the Bible that sometimes go under explored. Most of the time we can quickly point them out if the verse in question supports our vista while debunking someone else’s.
“Why, if they’d just take the whole Bible, instead of only part of it …”
I’ve said it myself many times.
It seams so clear, what I read in the Word of God. This verse obviously means “this” and that one surely says “that”.
But then, along comes a passage that is somewhat more difficult. What then? We read it of course. We have too; it is part of God’s Word. Speaking only for myself, I find that it becomes easy to “gloss” over a difficult passage; to quickly read through it so to minimize my chair squirming.

Let’s be honest for a second, we aren’t going to understand everything God has put in His book (at least I’m not). Still though, that fact needs to be balanced with a healthy dose of “What in the world does that mean?” questioning.
Is this kind of questioning good to do or is it not?
I sat in a Bible class once while we discussed the way Jesus healed the blind man at Bethsaida. You’ll recall the story found in Mark 8:22-26 where Jesus spits in the man’s eyes and puts his hands on them but the healing doesn’t seem to "take" and the man can only see what looks like “trees walking around”. Jesus touches him again and then the man’s eyes are opened and he sees everything clearly. In class, I asked the question “Why did Jesus heal the man in this way?” One of the men thought I shouldn’t ask that question. He thought me disrespectful to question his method. I explained that I meant no disrespect to the Master, only that perhaps there might be something to learn from asking this question (and the many other questions that come to us in our study time).
Was I being disrespectful or was I digging in the Scriptures?


And what of our previous blog post (I mean besides “the crickets”)? Does Paul's mention of "baptism for the dead" in 1 Cor. 15:29 change anything for us? Let me make three statements and see if this pushes us to any further thought processes (and please allow me the freedom not to necessarily believe what I state herein).

1. If I can be baptized for someone who is already dead, then I can argue that baptism is more of a symbol of a relationship with God and less of a critical factor in the development of that relationship.

2. If baptism for the dead is viable without the dead person’s consent or agreement, then I can argue that infant baptism is certainly valid (since the infant is at least alive at the time of the baptism).

3. Also, if baptism were so important to the early Christians that they would go so far as to be baptized for someone who had died, can we afford to blink at its importance for us today? (Alright that was a question and not a statement, but who’s counting?)



My thanks to all for letting me play "devil's advocate" and especially to Jel for sharing in the sweet melodious sounds of cricket chatter with me (last post). I've laid out a few thoughts here that could be discussed, but I'll also re post the picture of the confused lady with the Bible so we can talk about how silly that is, if nothing else.


Thing Two:
Please go see the movie by Ben Stein “Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed”. He is challenging “Big Science” on evolution and intelligent design. I don’t know if this has been highly publicized, but it should be. Here is a link to his site.
"http://www.expelledthemovie.com/"
Thanks,
Tom

6 comments:

Tom said...

"So," says Tom pretending to be someone else, "Did you see that funny picture of the lady who was confused about the Bible? That was really funny, wasn't it?"

Signed,
(Tom pretending to be) Anonymous

Anonymous said...

"SO" ... sorry I didn't get to your other post earlier. I know it can be frustrating to post a serious post & not get any responses to it. I've been there a lot, and I know lots of my preacher friends have been there too. We've had whole discussions about the lack of discussion on seriously spiritual posts.

Also, sometimes there are just days that it seems like no one's around. For me, I've been on the computer off & on today, but not really going around reading others' posts too much.

All that to say, don't take it personally. (o;

My congregation has had a Bible class before that studied some hard-to-understand passages like this. I don't recall if this particular one came up, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

I'll admit this must be one of those verses I just gloss over too, because I have never looked into it. Who are the people being baptized for the dead? Were the people in the first century that were baptizing themselves to try to save someone else that was dead? I guess I just don't get it. To me, the whole chapter is saying that if we don't believe in the resurrection of the dead, then we must not believe in the resurrection of Jesus either, in which case our preaching is in vain. I'm not sure what exactly the baptism for the dead is.

Tom said...

Lisa,
Thanks for stopping by. I don't take it personally if few stop by. I’m actually happy that so many do since I’ve only been at this for a few weeks. I tend to have a certain amount of fun with whatever I'm doing. In this case, I'm having fun with the silence on the blog. Besides, as you've said, it really is a tough passage. I wasn't really expecting someone to jump on the blog and post 7 pages of notes on what the verse means (for that, see Patrick Mead or your Dad).

I think the question you asked is one of the key points.

"Who are the people being baptized for the dead? Were the people in the first century that were baptizing themselves to try to save someone else that was dead?"

I have a few thoughts on this but I'll hold off for a little while longer, just in case someone else wants to get into the mix.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
Tom

jel said...

Tom I'm sorry ,



I'm just not a person who get into discussion!

Tom said...

Jel,

Don't worry about it. I really did love your cricket comment.

Tom

Anonymous said...

Tom,
Have I been baptized for the dead? Absolutely! I don't think the answer to this passage is the question, "Who is the people being baptized for the dead?", but rather, "Who is the dead person they are talking about?". This passage has long baffled me until a good study revealed (through the Holy Spirit!) its meaning. One of the biggest questions I had is how could a group of people make up such an important doctrine to them by just one verse? My wife used to sing with a community college and the director was Mormon and about half the singers were also. We were friends with one who wanted to convert us so we had a bible study with him at our house. We had an elder who came over and we talked about this very verse. When you ask the question, "Who is the dead person that people are being baptized for?", we see earlier in the chapter in verse 1 he is reminding the Corinthians what his original teaching to them was, the gospel, the DEATH, burial and resurrection of Christ. He stated that they needed to stay in the gospel for their salvation. Over and over the questions come, verse 12, 13, 16, and 17 about Christ death and resurrection. "But if it has been preached that Christ has not been raised from the dead, how can some say that there is no ressurrection from the dead?" He then goes into the teaching, "But Christ HAS INDEED been raised fom the dead. (verse 20) Then he states that our resurrection comes from the resurrection of Christ, verse 21. In verse 29 comes the question, and in no way does it state that anyone is being baptized for regular people who have died so those people can be saved. In the last part of the verse it says "...If the dead are not raised at all, why are people being baptized for them?". So now, ask the question, who is the dead person that people are being baptized for? JESUS! So, have I been baptized for the dead? Absolutely! I have been baptized for Jesus Christ! And it is through the power of the gospel I have been saved! Now I love that verse. A few years ago, one of our Sunday school teachers were going over this chapter in I Corinthians and he asked the class, "Have you ever been baptized for the dead?" While everyone started to shake their head, I spoke up and said "YES", I heard several gasps and the teacher just smiled!,
Eric, Bob's little Bro
P.S. I was reading my brothers blog and happen to see a link to yours, and this was an interesting question!